I'm sorry that you aren't getting this but the animated adventures of Kirk and company DO NOT COUNT.
They aren't canon.Gene declared them as not affecting the greater storyline of the entire Trek universe.

Writers can reference what ever they want but that doesn't make the cartoon itself legit now.

If it ain't created, authorized, or blessed by Joss it ain't canon. Anything else is just entertainment and just good old capitalism at work. IMO.

So...nothing made after 1991 counts as Star Trek? Gene Roddenberry wouldn't have been around to approve of anything then (the last few seasons of TNG, all of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Star Trek: Voyager, etc.), so I guess it just isn't part of "the entire Trek universe" by the standard you describe.

Perhaps someone could get an exact Quote.. but as I understand, Gene said All of the TV Series (Pretty sure this includes the ones After his death, too, because they are Series') except the Animated.)

I believe there Was a quote of "if you don't see it on the TV or Movie screen, it didn't happen".

Obviously, this speciffic quote doesn't discount the Animated series, but as I understand, that was discounted at another time.

I'd consider it a kindness if someone would actually Publish Gene's "Star Trek Bible"

The whole question of The Animated Series is just one example from Star Trek...I could've picked another, but I was simply using it as a single example of a larger point.

For whatever reason(s), a lot of people have this kind of "auteur theory" of canon, where the statements of the series creator are the only thing that matter, and this tends to be applied selectively to series that are more personally associated with their original creator. As such, fans apply this approach to some expansive series (e.g. Star Trek, Buffy, Firefly), but not others (e.g. Doctor Who), while others fall in this weird place in between (e.g. there aren't a lot of Star Wars fans insisting this strongly that only the movies happened, with none of the books counting at all).

While it would be great to always have a clarifying statement or three about these matters of canonicity from the auteur(s) in question, this just won't happen most of the time--and the point I was trying to make earlier is that sometimes, a series creator will make seemingly odd statements on such subjects. Gene Roddenberry also thought that Star Trek V shouldn't count, but people don't seem to be working as hard to make clear that said movie isn't canonical.

Another current example in the larger world of Star Trek is the canonical death of Trip Tucker in the Enterprise series finale, which the Enterprise novel line is very deliberately and blatantly working to "undo" by creating a reason (in the novels) for his death to have been faked.

So, when the writers of the television series are willing to include something which was left out by the series creator, while the writers of the ongoing novel series (the only new Star Trek fiction at the moment) are willing to blatantly go against (or rationalise away) an event which was clearly shown onscreen, what does it even mean to say that something "counts" or "doesn't count?" In the case of Star Trek, the auteur is no longer around to have an opinion on the matter...

...and in the case of Firefly/Serenity, it is unlikely that Joss Whedon will go out of his way to make a statement with his thoughts on canonicity. He hasn't even bothered to approve any of the novel proposals yet, so I doubt the issue of whether those novels should be considered canon is really on his mind--and any statements about whether the comics "count" more or the references in the Serenity novelisation "count" less are assumptions on the part of Browncoats, based on criteria that they have established.

You can hold your breath and say, "It's never going to count unless Joss Whedon explicitly says it does," but I don't see any such statements on the horizon--and when it comes to licenced material in general, I try to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

How about... "Accept it untill you hear otherwise from the Owner of the material or untill you run into Contradictory Material"?

Almanac I'm sorry that you're such a die-hard skeptic on this point but,to try to address some of you points...

Gene didn't like DS9 when he viewed some of the pilot but by that time he had turned it all over to Rick Berman(traitor)and felt it was no longer his place to say what can and cannot be done.The novels obviously can say nad do whatever they want and part of the reasons for that are: A.Special effects cost a lot less when the're only in your brain B.Since they aren't canon they aren't hindered by all of that official nonsense, making them speculative fiction!!That's a good thing,really!

Some of the novels I prefer over the official version of events,the DS9 books are pretty good these days since they decided to be "season 8",but since the show's are seen all over the world and since Trek started out as A t.v. show the eps. and movies are what counts because they have the broadest range of appeal and audience too.

So nowadays if Rick Berman says it counts we have to listen to him.(the trouble is HE listens to Brannon Braga too much)

Foxtrot's post here today is the best answer for this I feel.Until we get told different it's good.I can live with that for now.I just thought we should get the rules together for this sandbox before everyone jumps in and begins to play in it,other wise someone may get hurt. I'd be real choked up,there might even be tears!!

Hello!! Ain't there at least one sumbitch on this here site with an opinion?

All of ya are falling down on the job!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_lol.gif)

I was watching the BDM last night and a thought occured to me;do the deleted scenes count as official plot points? In other words in keeping with this threads theme are THEY canon? If they aren't then what a shame to lose some pretty good extra stuff!!


Opinions?


Ahem...I SAID,OPINIONS????

Okay now this is interesting to me,my topic has gotten over 1,000 looks and no one has posted a response in a LOOOONNNG time!

I just gotta ask you all again to please share with me your opinions on this topic!I still feel that this is an issue that we should have clarified for us. I realize that we all ahv eour own opinions on what should or shouldn't be include into the "official" storyline of the 'verse but we don't hav eany grounds for deciding what we can or cannot consider when we look into the gaps between all of the info tha Joss has so lovingly not really given us about our characters and the 'verse.

So opinions, answers, insults?

In the Australian Official Serenity Movie Site, there's a clip of Joss answering audience questions, and he mentions editing out the "boring stuff" simply because it took up time. What I got from the comments was that ANYthing on the dvd is part of the story; i.e., Canon. JMHO, based on Joss' comments.

He mentioned that Morena got axed a lot, not because it wasn't interesting or cool, but because the scenes were not necessary to the plotline of the movie. He also says, "I'd love to have a sequel so I can make up the lost screen time to Morena".

You already know my opinion regarding canon, Wolf, so that's why I haven't posted. Heck, I haven't even Lurked lol. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif) Canon is like the City Limits sign; step beyond it and you're out of town. Stay within it and you can build new houses to your heart's content. the Building Codes aren't strict at all lol!

Thanks TD.

I just want to know where the boundary lines are is all.This is just part of who I am as a fan.
The bit about Joss's Q&A was helpful some,but I'd just like to ahve som eofficial kind of ruling or at least a general consensus as to what we will be using to further our knowledge of the 'verse,if the comics don't count then although I'd love to read them they won't matter to the overall continuity of the storylines in the 'verse as a whole and then I and a number of others who do not get the chance to look at them won't b eentirely lost and we can still debate character history with as much ammo as needed.

Like I said it's a quirk of mine but it's still a damn good question at the same time and deserves a good answer.

What is Canon in the 'verse and does it matter to us?


Thanks TD! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

I like a loose definition of Canon, because it gives you more room to move lol... kind of like an oversized suit (Yet Another wacky metaphor). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

King Size bed might be a better metaphor T.D. but hey if you want to go with suit... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_lol.gif)

Hey, i'm divorced, so either way I'm in here alone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

At least you don't get accused of being a blanket thief!

In my opinion, I consider Canon everything that is written by the creator (Joss). I consider the TV Series, the comics leading to the movie and the movie to be Canon. It is important to me to know what is canon or not because I want to know the reality of a character's development according to the creator. For example, If Inara experiences a traumatic event that scars her, that will affect the way I see her, the other characters and the story. So I want to make sure that what she went through was real according to the creator. If what she went through was written by someone esle, my view of her, the other characters and the story would remain intact. This is why i'm hesitant to read any other comics or novels because they might distort my view of the characters and the way the story develops and I might not be able to find out if they are real or not. This is just my opinion BTW.

I do not advocate ignoring stories set in the 'verse that are written by others than Joss or his band of selected storytellers but I do understand what you are saying jat946.


I say go ahead and read 'em just know that the story isn't "official" and so will likely never be acknowldged by anyone involved in the writing of the show/movie(s).Some of Star Trek's finest moments were created within the pages of one of the many novels written about the shows,and sadly they definitely do not count as "official".Doesn't meant they weren't good, just that they don't "count".

Read the comics and novels and even fan-fic if you want it's fun and that's the point,they can be silly and tell a great story within the boundaries of the 'verse and their own imaginings of what the 'verse is to them, all without the need to seek approval from the folk that decide what is acceptable!!


It doesn't matter whether something is canon for purposes of simply enjoying it! Canon only matters when you are attempting to put together the pieces of who or what your favorite show and it's characters are about.

I had the good fortune to spend the better part of my day last Saturday with TD Brown,a "mini" shindig, if you will.During the courtse of our our conversations he happened to mention that Joss has made an official announcement with regards to the novels set in "The 'Verse" that have been rumored and planned and hoped for by so many of us for so long now.Tragically this announcement was the oficial word from on high(Joss hisownself)that these new tales following our dear crew will not be published after all as per Joss's own decision on the matter.

I haven't yet seen/heard this announcement yet but TD has summarized it nicely for me...
Joss want's to write the further adventures himself and doesn't feel comfortable letting others care for his baby.He is alleged to have said that he felt as though the novels written about Buffy/Angel were not what he would have liked and that he had NO control over them.


Now I suppose that some of you may be wondering what this has to do with the topic at hand?Well I feel that Joss simply need's to step back from these books and proclaim them as mere speculative fiction that has no real bearing on the direction of the OFFICIAL story as written by Joss himself.Star Trek has been highly sucessful in the publishing field for many,many,years now,even helping to keep the franchise alive during those dark times between the airing of the original series and the release of ST:TMP!!
The thing to remember about this though is that the Trek novels are not(say it with me now kiddies!!) CANON!! They don't count,not one whit,and yet many of us read them and enjoy them all the same!!!


SO I ask you ,my fellow Browncoats,does canon matter in THIS case?
Do we care whether the novels are the official story or just plain old fun and entertainment featuring the continuing hi-jinks, and ensuing hilarity that follows, of our crew?

I say yes on the novels and yes to not having them matter in the grander design that Joss has cooking up in his head!I want more Firefly/Serenity and I would rather Joss was in control of it too but I'm willing to test out another writer or writers vision just so we can keep it alive if nothing else!


Opinions?Answers?Hateful comments re: my spelling??


Bring it on,please. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_cool.gif)

Well, you know how I feel about it, Wolf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif) ! I'm disappointed by his decision on the Novels, disagree with it, but DO understand his reasoning. But I think I speak for a lot of fans out there when I say that we really need some more from the 'verse, and we need it right away!

It's been over a year since the film. We're coming up on the FIFTH Anniversary of the Series! We need more... not just Comic Book Trilogies, either. I'm trying to be patient, I know most of us are. But in order to keep the Dream alive, we truly want and need more Serenifly. Within "Canon" would be nice, but right now we're "starving", Joss!

JMHO

Starving is about right TD!! Although I can intellectually understand Joss's decision here emotionally,bascially on the basis of being a Browncoat,I can't friggin' believe this crap!! What is he thinking??


We're all trying to be patient here and I'll tell you all now that the point of me posting again in this thread is to discuss/detrmine how many of us here actually care whether or not thre stories are written by Joss himself or not.He maintains that the novels written in the Buffy and Angel series were out of his control and that he didn't like the direction that the stories were going in but was powerless to do anything about it.As has been said I AM symapathetic but I really would rather have some stories of the 'verse instead.

Am I alone in this opinion??

What can we Browncoats do about this?Anything?
Could we petition the publisher to adhere to strict guidelines set by Joss himself?Would that appease him?


TD?
ANYONE?

Frustrating as it is, I think we just have to wait this out. It drives me nuts, but I found the "silver lining"...

Joss is basically saying that he wants more Serenity, but done as an act of Love and Art... not for Money's sake alone. He Could do the book deal, and take our money with little regard for the quality of the stories we might get. But he has chosen to pursue Serenity With the Actors, and I wish him well in all he does so that this might come to be. If it should happen that we can't get more in the Live action Medium, perhaps he'll consider Animation. And if That doesn't happen within a reasonable amount of time, maybe we can talk him into the Novels.

Time will tell, and I have Faith! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

Independent in Spirit, United by a common Passion: BROWNCOATS!

I don't think I'm desperate enough for animation just yet...

I really would prefer a few novels during the intervening time between movies(or whatever it'll end up being)myself but I guess I'll just have to sit and wait in the meantime.I ain't going anywhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

Having finished reading Krad's Serenity adaptation some little bit ago I can now say that I would prefer for a fact that there be more novels.

That is not to say that I need krad to write them though.

Either way, this is currently a moot point, as Pocket Books declared a breach-of-contract on the two (potential) original novels after Joss Whedon failed to approve any of the submitted proposals...

Example of need for canon: Special features graphics on the BDM's discs give credit to Ron Glass as having had prtrayed "Meria" Book.

T.D. Brown made the argument the other day that we have so little "canon" because Joss is wishy washy on the details and keeps changing his mind about various things.

Responses??

First of all, what Joss Whedon says is canon, is canon.

In this verse, I hope that canon will always be just stories where Joss Whedon is the writer, director or executive producer. I don't like the idea of people writing novels that can be considered canon. If the novels were canon then anything Joss did set after the novels in the verse would be affected by that. This would change what Joss could do dramatically, and for a show where attention to detail is so important, it would most definitely change something, which is surely not what any of us want.

There will probably never be a novel that would be canon if this is the case, because Joss would have had to have pitched the story, in which case he would most likely want it to be on-screen or a comic, because that is what Joss Whedon writes, not prose.

That being said, I do agree that there would have been no harm in letting novels be published, making it clear that they were purely speculation, not canon, although I can see where he is coming from, because he created these characters, he loves these characters, and he probably doesn't want them going off in directions that he doesn't want them to go in, or that he may see as things that the characters wouldn't do.