Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )


> 'Real World' discussion rules

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Civilisation : What's It All About?, A non fiction book rec.
Magonsdaughter
post Apr 27 2008, 08:06 AM
Post #1


Moondaughter


Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,631
Joined: 31-December 05
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 1,287



Sees as though I quote Jared Diamond all the time, I thought I'd open up the opportunity to discuss civilisations and how they become 'eminent', if you like or 'great' if you'd prefer.

For those of you who haven't read it, Guns, Germs and Steel outlines one such theory.

From Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns%2C_Germs%2C_and_Steel

QUOTE
Diamond argues that Eurasian civilization is not so much a product of ingenuity, but of opportunity and necessity. That is, civilization is not created out of sheer will or intelligence, but is the result of a chain of developments, each made possible by certain preconditions.

In our earliest societies humans lived as hunter-gatherers. The first step towards civilization is the move from hunter-gatherer to agriculture with the domestication and farming of wild crops and animals. Agricultural production leads to food surpluses and this in turn supports sedentary societies, rapid population growth, and specialization of labor. Large societies tend to develop ruling classes and supporting bureaucracies, which leads in turn to the organization of empires.

Although agriculture arose in several parts of the world, Eurasia gained an early advantage due to the availability of suitable plant and animal species for domestication. In particular, the Middle East had by far the best collection of plants and animals suitable for domestication - barley, two varieties of wheat and three protein-rich pulses for food; flax for textiles; goats, sheep and cattle. As early Middle Eastern civilizations began to trade, they found additional useful animals in adjacent territories, most notably horses and donkeys for use in transport. In contrast, Native American farmers had to struggle to develop corn as a useful food from its probable wild ancestor, teosinte. Eurasia as a whole domesticated 13 species of large animals (over 100lb / 44kg); South America just one (counting the llama and alpaca as breeds within the same species); the rest of the world none at all. Diamond describes the small number of domesticated species (14 out of 148 "candidates") as an instance of the Anna Karenina principle: many promising species have just one of several significant difficulties that prevent domestication. For example in many parts of the world local populations have to settle for taming animals that are born wild, such as Asian elephants, because it is very difficult to breed them in captivity. Australia and the Americas also had very few large mammals as a result of an end-Pleistocene extinction, possibly because they had not co-evolved with humans and were insufficiently wary of human hunters.

Eurasia's large landmass and long east-west distance increased these advantages. Its large area provided it with more plant and animal species suitable for domestication and allowed its people to exchange both innovations and diseases. Its east-west orientation allowed breeds domesticated in one part of the continent to be used elsewhere through similarities in climate and the cycle of seasons. In contrast, Australia suffered from a lack of useful animals due to extinction; the Americas had difficulty adapting crops domesticated at one latitude for use at other latitudes (and, in North America, adapting crops from one side of the Rocky Mountains to the other); and Africa was fragmented by its extreme variations in climate from north to south: plants and animals that flourished in one area never reached other areas where they could have flourished, because they could not survive the intervening environment. Europe was the ultimate beneficiary of Eurasia's east-west orientation: in the first millenium BC the Mediterranean areas of Europe adopted the Middle East's animals, plants, and agricultural techniques; in the first millennium AD the rest of Europe followed suit.

Hence Eurasia was able to support larger, denser populations, which made trade easier and technological progress faster than in other regions. These economic and technological advantages eventually enabled Europeans to conquer the peoples of the other continents in recent centuries - using the "Guns" and "Steel" of the book's title.

Eurasia's dense populations, high level of trade, and living in close proximity to livestock also made the transmission of diseases easy, and so natural selection forced Eurasians to develop immunity to a wide range of pathogens. When Europeans made contact with America, European diseases ravaged the indigenous American population, rather than the other way around (the "trade" in diseases was a little more balanced in Africa and southern Asia: malaria and yellow fever made these regions notorious as the "white man's grave";[2]; and syphilis may have spread in the opposite direction[3]). The European diseases decimated indigenous populations so that relatively small numbers of Europeans could maintain their dominance - the "Germs" of the book's title.


Discuss or ignore as you see fit.

Just trying to find a topic we haven't beaten to death with a donkey.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gwyn
post Apr 27 2008, 09:21 AM
Post #2


Utilitarian Universalist


Group: Paid Members
Posts: 2,229
Joined: 29-December 05
From: San Francisco, California
Member No.: 133



On a more micro level, I like the explanations put forth in "When Strangers Cooperate: Using Social Conventions to Govern Ourselves," by David Brown.

Similar to what Diamond is suggesting, Brown suggests that society self-organizes, but for Brown that organization is around behaviors practiced by "enough others" - a kind of critical mass effect through which a relatively small group of people can establish behavioral norms for many others.

Brown doesn't explore what I think is a reasonable derivative idea: the importance of shared values and a "greater good" (which need not be religious in any way) in establishing, stabilizing and sustaining a civilization. Cultural diversity be damned! We all came from different places, and that strengthens, enriches and informs us, but one civilization = one culture.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HeroOfCanton
post Apr 27 2008, 02:09 PM
Post #3


Regency Girl


Group: Regulars
Posts: 18,626
Joined: 29-December 05
From: Hartfield
Member No.: 68



The book sound fascinating, MD. In a couple of months, I may be able to start reading what I want to again, and I will definitely consider this.

The guns/steel portion of the book appears to be similar to Bernard Lewis's theory of why Europeans eventually outstripped the Middle East. (Lewis makes the argument in several books, but the most concise and focused discussion happens in What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response.) He says that it comes down to Europe's need for stronger ships able to weather the Atlantic. Once they had that figured out, they could go around the Middle East and the exchange of goods and knowledge between Europe and the Middle East ended. Also, ocean travel allowed Europe to conquer new lands and gather enormous wealth.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Magonsdaughter
post Apr 28 2008, 08:24 AM
Post #4


Moondaughter


Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,631
Joined: 31-December 05
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 1,287



Thanks for the other book recs. I'll check both of those out (might even read them too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif) )

What I like about Diamond is his debunking that certain races or cultures are smarter than others, or were held back by cultural beliefs or practices etc etc, but their progress really depended upon some pretty basic things...could grains be easily cultivated in an area? Could animals be domesticated? Did you know the zebra, unlike the horse can't be trained to ridden. I can't remember why, but I am rereading this book so I'll let you all know.

His other book, Collapse is an interesting read as well. The other end. Why civilisations collapse.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Citizen
post Apr 28 2008, 12:03 PM
Post #5


Command and Control


Group: Paid Members
Posts: 3,902
Joined: 16-December 06
From: London UK
Member No.: 8,580



QUOTE (Magonsdaughter @ Apr 28 2008, 08:24 AM) *
Did you know the zebra, unlike the horse can't be trained to ridden.
Tell it to him:
 1907_zebra_ride.jpg ( 56.27K ) Number of downloads: 4

http://messybeast.com/history/working.htm
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BigOwl
post Apr 28 2008, 03:59 PM
Post #6


Captain


Group: Paid Members
Posts: 1,599
Joined: 30-December 05
From: In exile, in North Texas
Member No.: 456



Another book for your list, MD, is Kim Stanley Robinson's alternative history epic, The Years of Rice and Salt--which explores the possibilities of some of Diamond's observations. What if, Robinson muses, instead of 30% of Christian Europe's having been killed off by the Plague, 90% had? His book speculates on Muslims and the Chinese filling in the niche, and presents some interesting outcomes.

Some of the discussions of this topic focus on the inevitability of conflict and "human nature" being some fixed "entity"--predetermining how we will behave, based on historical or other models. But if human beings have reached the point at which they can direct their evolution to some extent, and are capable of making more sustainable choices than we have in the past, possibilities are somewhat more encouraging. Otherwise, the outlook is rather bleak.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TimR
post Apr 28 2008, 07:10 PM
Post #7


Command and Control


Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,480
Joined: 11-April 06
From: Great Smokey Mountains
Member No.: 6,173



re: the title of this thread,

About 10,000 years
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gwyn
post Apr 28 2008, 08:27 PM
Post #8


Utilitarian Universalist


Group: Paid Members
Posts: 2,229
Joined: 29-December 05
From: San Francisco, California
Member No.: 133



QUOTE (Magonsdaughter @ Apr 28 2008, 01:24 AM) *
What I like about Diamond is his debunking that certain races or cultures are smarter than others, or were held back by cultural beliefs or practices etc etc, but their progress really depended upon some pretty basic things...could grains be easily cultivated in an area? Could animals be domesticated?


And yet it's not debunked, since all of those things make up the "natural" in "natural selection." One could still argue that although Europeans or Asians aren't inherently smarter, their more favorable environment created an ecological niche that selected in favor of intelligence over, say, 100 generations. Environments like Africa, that didn't offer the same favorable environmnent for intelligence, resulted in different selection events.

I think Diamond's work is fascinating, but don't feel it's succeeded much in myth-debunking.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Magonsdaughter
post Apr 28 2008, 09:48 PM
Post #9


Moondaughter


Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,631
Joined: 31-December 05
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 1,287



QUOTE (Gwyn @ Apr 29 2008, 06:27 AM) *
QUOTE (Magonsdaughter @ Apr 28 2008, 01:24 AM) *
What I like about Diamond is his debunking that certain races or cultures are smarter than others, or were held back by cultural beliefs or practices etc etc, but their progress really depended upon some pretty basic things...could grains be easily cultivated in an area? Could animals be domesticated?


And yet it's not debunked, since all of those things make up the "natural" in "natural selection." One could still argue that although Europeans or Asians aren't inherently smarter, their more favorable environment created an ecological niche that selected in favor of intelligence over, say, 100 generations. Environments like Africa, that didn't offer the same favorable environmnent for intelligence, resulted in different selection events.

I think Diamond's work is fascinating, but don't feel it's succeeded much in myth-debunking.


his theory is that Eurasians are not inherently smarter than Native Americans, Indigenous Australians etc etc.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 1st May 2008 - 01:09 PM
Explicit Dimness Skin By Invision Styles & Destiny Paradise